WAR!
(aka Whoa Is Us)

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Several articles (from sources such as the New York Times and the AP) were circulating through the Think Tankers. The articles had to do with the impact of the Homeland Security Acts on personal freedom and liberty.

As I started thinking about the talk of war, it made me ask --

When was the last time a war(s) like this happened... the Crusades?


a reply:

if yer sayin what i think yer sayin

we're readin from different history books

comparing badly planned knee jerk tango hunting to the christian church's attempt at religious genocide...

don't know what to tell ya


So, I said:

well... i was just thinking of the overall concept... waging war for peace... makes me feel like an oxy moron just saying it... hehehe

and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe christians would like the genocide of certain "fanatical" religious groups?

i mean... when was the last time we went to war against religious movements... and not geographic governmental systems?

and, why don't we try to figure out WHY these "fanatical" religious groups are trying to kill us... before we kill any MORE of them? [who started this fight in the first place?]

or, has killing people in the name of peace worked in the past?


Reply:

well... i was just thinking of the overall concept... waging war for peace... makes me feel like an oxy moron just saying it... hehehe

i guess you'd have to blow the brains outta a home invader in your daughter's bedroom to see the difference between theory and practice

none of which makes it more palatable, but it sure as hell makes it less of an academic brain twisting exercise

and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe christians would like the genocide of certain "fanatical" religious groups?

i think there's two mistakes in that line of thought

one is equating fringe psycho's post facto manipulation of an action to their own twisted motives

the other is avoiding the issue bush's iraq invasion as a subject all by itself

i think it was a mistake to do it the way he's doing it, and to do so without going full public on his real motives

you can trust me when i say this time around there are so many back-room issues simmering (none of which is being fed to the public) that the appearance is as muddy as any i've seen in my lifetime

so he's asking for misinterpretation of his actions

unfortunately, alotta americans are taking a beating for that - and it ain't just casual beatings

i mean... when was the last time we went to war against religious movements... and not geographic governmental systems?

irrelevant - nobody said we're at religious war, other than allah's people and the domestic fringe psychos

and, why don't we try to figure out WHY these "fanatical" religious groups are trying to kill us... before we kill any MORE of them? [who started this fight in the first place?]

if you ain't figgered it out yet, go back to murrah/OKC, WTC I, WTC II, the two AMEMB bombings in Africa, the barracks bombing in the middle east, and dozens of other outright tango attacks by bin laden and affiliated rogue states

or, has killing people in the name of peace worked in the past?

when you're done cleaning hair off yer daughters bedroom wall - as per the scenario above - you're faced with similar thoughts and challenges

but few who undergo that experience mount campaigns to understand the criminal mind to make the world a better place to live

and if you'd been unsuccessful in stopping the perp in question in that scenario from harming your daughter, you'd be faced with a truckload of other challenges

one thing you might wanna give some thought

as late as 1940, ghandi didn't think hitler was such a big threat or such a bad guy

which is why i read ghandi for inspiring peace in my life, but not for what to do when somebody shoots at me

there's a message in all that - mebbe more than one

but the more immediate issue - implicitly - is that of 911, in which alotta people were murdered

so instead of rhetorical questions about killing for peace, here's one right where it drops between yer heels

what do you DO about that

NOT hunt the perps
NOT go after the rogue states that helped make that possible
NOT go to war

great

now that all the DON'Ts are outta the way

what do you DO?

p.s.

and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe christians would like the genocide of certain "fanatical" religious groups?

well i'm just guessing now, but a long shot notion tells me that 200 stories of building and 3,000 lives were wiped off the face of the earth by their counterpart islamic fundamentalists

for my money, i'd lock em both in the same f*cking room for a week with one bowl of rice, one bowl of water, and let them work it out

and leave the rest of us the hell alone

or would that be too harsh and politically incorrect

p.s.s.

first, you'd have to hunt both of them down, take them into custody, and force them into the room

some would not come along peacefully

you'd need to have a no-war solution for that too


reply to your reply:

hehehe... i ain't saying ya don't have some valid points... but, ya appear to have skimmed over my favorite of the rhetorical questions?

and, why don't we try to figure out WHY these "fanatical" religious groups are trying to kill us... before we kill any MORE of them? [who started this fight in the first place?]

i mean i can go back and see where they have done these bad things... but why did most of it happen... in particular... why is bin laden's group doing what they are doing?

all of those people can't be crazy... nor stupid... so why are they doing it?

why?

and, is there any validity to their claim of self defense? [which also appears to be our claim... so now... we go in a downward spiral of tit for tat... or do we figger who really hit who first?]


Then you replied:

not at all.

you've skimmed over the harsh reality that the first order of business - at every level - is to stop them before you go to the lab and analyze their underlying motives... many of which emerge in investigation during the hunt anyway.

like i said with the scenario - when the f*cker was trying to mount your daughter in her bed, and in the wake of that effort - no matter the immediate result - you'd not be advised to be thinking of how an asshole thinks, but rather first how to stop him so he didn't wreak any more havoc

on the motives - fine... you wanna analyze, then analyze:

religious fanaticism has been around for millenia.

u figure nobody's analyzed it ?

does having analyzed it - thousands of times by some fairly great intellects - stop it ?

your inference is that understanding something itself encourages or impedes a thing.

it doesn't.

to wit,

noam chaumsky thinks he understands it all. as does the UN
as do all the social psychologists
and theologians
and armchair shrinks
and all political moderates
and all political extremists, left and right

when it comes to unprovoked violence against innocents, understanding is a booby prize. nothing more.

what you're implicitly asking for is solutions.

alternately, you may be asking for something more sweeping which, as i was once told, you will not find in this life as a human being

only you know the answer to that one

i think i know some of the solutions - but i start from the harsh reality starting point of here and now like the way we treat our kids, both at home and as a nation, as government, as a world

like budget priorities and programs

like war versus education

but in my case, my solution would not be to bend over for the enemies of democracy out there while i was putting more emphasis on our kids

i would simply reduce the size of our military budget by about 70%, turn what was left into the meanest bunch of mother f*ckers on the planet who could go anywhere and do anything

course, jfk tried that, along with erasing the mob, union corruption, ending silly ass mil projects (after learning the hard way what they were really doing), more focus on education, social balance...

and he's no longer with us

jfk got to witness the harsh realities up close and personal

what about you ?

willing to die for those altruistic ideas ?

willing to have your family suffer or die along with you ?

americans generally have some great ideas, a really impressive mouth to deliver them, but absolutely no balls or action when it comes time for the rubber to meet the road

if your wife had died in 911, what would you be doing now ? writing letters to usama to establish peaceful dialogue and understand why he wanted your wife dead for his own agenda ?

and considering he's done that dozens of times during the past two decades (see prior list), are you sure that would be on your list of things to do ?

or let's put some wheels on your idea - while you were hunting him, would you have social scientists wrestling with that issue (they have been for a long time, even the ones in the law enforcement, intel. and mil. agencies) ?

then what ? what would you do with that assessment ? i mean, EXACTLY WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH IT ?

i mean i can go back and see where they have done these bad things... but why did most of it happen... in particular... why is bin laden's group doing what they are doing?

all of those people can't be crazy... nor stupid... so why are they doing it?

why?

if you do some homework, you'll find fanaticism rarely involves mental illness of any conventional form or definition

it also rarely involves intellectual deficiency of any kind... other than too much time on their hands and very pissed off

you could do with a large dose of long-term research on fanaticism, religious extremism, and related subjects

and, is there any validity to their claim of self defense? [which also appears to be our claim... so now... we go in a downward spiral of tit for tat... or do we figger who really hit who first?]

tit for tat ? are you on crack ?

find a single corollary event for 911... for murrah/OKC... for WTCI... for WTCII...

and when you're done looking for one - which you won't find - then go look up and read all of bin ladens rhetoric... and the rhetoric of history's other lunatics

fer crissakes, we had to be dragged, kicking and scream- ing, into WWI and WWII - then everybody complained that we joined too late, then they complained we did too much the french were SEA and nam LONG before we ever entered the fray. and we did so at the request of HO CHI MINH almost half a century ago.

unlike the french, who not invited. and unlike the japanese who were also there for a century or so

but you didn't hear the public bitching then did you ? about either of those countries ?

why don't you hear bitching (including from yourself) about what kim jong il (who helps finance bin laden and other tangos) does to his own population... at least as much bitching as you do about a war on iraq ?

i assume you know all about that... or maybe that's not as well published in the mainstream press

or mebbe the whore-y-wood assholes don't find that worth bitching about

ever stop to think about why ?

or about what hussein does to his own people ? where's the humanistic complaint about that ? or about his use of mustard gas on the iranians and the kurds REPEAT- EDLY ?

or about how the PRC-Chinese gov. does population control with formaldehyde injections into the brains of babies as they crown DURING CHILDBIRTH ?

or how afghanistan is still the worlds largest producer of opium - with 15,000 troops on the ground there, be- cause they're not allowed to stop that this time around ?

or how the taliban and usama used those drugs to mount their bombing strikes, including 911 ?

cool - let's put iraq in charge of the UN committee on bio weapons disarmamment, and libya in charge of the UN committee on human rights

outrageous, right ? mebbe, but its a done deal - on both counts

i think jim garrison was right - we're through the f*cking looking glass

and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe christians would like the genocide of certain "fanatical" religious groups?

just to straighten out your facts, here's a quote from bin laden's most recent jihad declaration.

note its him that's declaring a religious war specifically, and generally that they - as a a religious group - should rule the world

go find a parallel threat or statement by anybody else in the fracas

We also point out that whoever supported the United States, including the hypocrites of Iraq or the rulers of Arab countries, those who approved their actions and followed them in this crusade war by fighting with them or providing bases and administrative support, or any form of support, even by words, to kill the Muslims in Iraq, should know that they are apostates and outside the community of Muslims. It is permissible to spill their blood and take their property. God says: "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other." And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them. Verily, Allah guideth not a people unjust. We also stress to honest Muslims that they should move, incite, and mobilize the [Islamic] nation, amid such grave events and hot atmosphere so as to liberate themselves from those unjust and renegade ruling regimes, which are enslaved by the United States. They should also do so to establish the rule of God on earth.

while looking for parallels - which you won't find - you can take a look at this, which will show you how long and deep they been at this

in fact - and this is not common knowledge - Iran began planting people here in the '70's in university technical programs like engineering and the like... you'll see mention of one of allah's people specifically arriving CONUS circa 1973

i give you this info to help you see the expansive scope and time period over which they've been planning their destruction and murders

you'll have to search for the motive yourself - if that's the main subject for your current attention

meanwhile, between bush making stupid political moves, tangos going over the edge, and all the strange bedfellow transnational alliances its prompting, i'd say were about to have a very nasty decade or so


So, I said to you:

strange as it may seem... our seams may not be that far apart?

sewed tighter then one may think?

that is to say ---

1) i'm not suggesting a get weak position
2) justice... we both agree in this?
3) the point.

do we want to become what it is we are trying to destroy?


is that the point ?

sorry - i was concentrating on all the other "point" 's you made, then dropped

the pope has bodyguards and one of the slickest intel operations - probably the oldest one too - in the world

the ghandi family hasn't been to insistent about that kinda thing, and most of them have been assassinated

instead of asking me rhetorical questions which, when put back to you, you don't even answer, try proposing what we SHOULD DO

because what you're trying to answer - as have millions before you - is "Where do the twain meet ?"... "How do we start from right here, right now ?"

I already started to address that prev in this thread, with the reduction in and toughening of mil forces, more money on education and diplomacy, using the truly best and brightest as our point men in developing domestic and foreign policy (which would have to overcome the major roadblock of four year elected officials' tenures - a very big obstacle)...

I'd bring Kissinger and other genuine intellects back into the political fold, but this time I'd reign him in with missions based on more altruistic purpose, so he wouldn't simply use it for self enrichment, self aggrandizement, and other selfish purposes. But I'd pay him well enough to make it worth his while. Same goes for people like our friend - who belongs in national and even world policy development positions.

Your rhetorical question, your turn. Try answering it yourself.


ooooh... you mean besides trying to fix the big picture... what would i do with the here and now?

*seek justice*

ID parties on both sides that have violated human rights, including but not limited to:

sudan
WTT
bombing of afgan wedding
aid to Israel (and other aid money used to kill civilians)
WWII nukin' of japan civilians
etc

then, attempt to bring those suspects to justice... without killing them (and in no event killing innocent /bystanders)

[note: only people that HAVE committed a crime would be sought (that is to say... though we have not found them guilty yet, we know that a crime has been committed ... as opposed to a hypothetical future crime.)]

i would expect as many, or more, americans would need to be justified (cuz a lot of perps from the other side are already dead... like those on the planes 9/11)

and, i would try to display that american justice... is just... around the world... that we are just as just to us... as them.

... as opposed to two-faced hypocrites


ooooh... you mean besides trying to fix the big picture... what would i do with the here and now?

*seek justice*

more rhetorical horseshit - like you have a corner on its definition or its correct implementation

ID parties on both sides that have violated human rights, including but not limited to:

(list)

i honestly thought you were smarter than that.


You said:

more rhetorical horseshit - like you have a corner on its definition or its correct implementation
i wasn't going to use my definition of justice... like you said... i ain't that smart.

and, since you appear to have defined it in your emails... i was going to use your corner:

"for my money, i'd lock em both in the same fucking room for a week with one bowl of rice, one bowl of water, and let them work it out"


i define 'smart' as at least w-i-s-e enough to know the facts, the truth and the history behind your choice of purported "parallels"

that list was as poor as any i've seen from anybody on this subject

i guess i expected better from you

i'm now convinced that US education oughtta require you live with a family and go to school in another country for one year before graduating high school - complete with being conversational in that country's language

you'd have to master latin, as its the foundation of all western and romance languages

and you should have to pass history, logic and english language tests that would make most guys balls shrivel today

phys ed - grade school through high school - would be a bitch

an enjoyable bitch, but a bitch nonetheless

college would be paid for by public funds, and teachers would be among the best paid professionals in world history

absent that, we are headed for more serious problems than anyone, including the doomsdayers, could ever dream

and from this thread alone, it shouldn't be too tough to figure out that it won't all be from outside our borders

ignorance breeds parallactic conflict - the worst kind of all


Yeeha! i thought we were in agreement... the education thing... on the money. in fact, i'm dumbfounded that you can gradgeminate without knowing how to manage money.

why don't we teach people how to save and invest?

why haven't we shown people... they as consumers have the most powerful vote... the way the spend their dollars? the way the vote with their dollars (and, i'd suggest that most of today's problems resulted from the way people spent their dollars)

i could spout and shout quite a fit on the subject... let alone computers and technology, etc. music... art... damn shame.

the only other clearifrycation might be this part:

And, you said:

your choice of purported "parallels"

this is not a list of mine... only that which i have heard others complain about... indeed, the first time i heard people around the world... russia... africa... canada... questioning the justice of the US nuke bombings in japan... hmmm... i had to stop and think... were we justified in killing massive amounts of civilians?

and, now as we store massive amounts of nukes... we tell others you can not have them... because...? we are better than you? more responsible than you?

in each of the "lists" examples, there are many people who believe that justice has not been served... that civilians were murdered.

and, in many people's book... murder is murder.

now, i don't know which of the events on the list really involved murder... but, i do believe the world needs more education on the subject... less we turn into hatfields and mccoys.

thus, the only addition to education that i would stress... is listening

seems to me... in large part... that when those 2 things happen... justice takes care of itself



post script:

i was just sittin' here thinkin' about this thread

and, what a friggin dag nab shame... that it's tooooo late

you are right in your thoughts

but, it is too late for the rest of us

for, i see no course of action... if taken today... that will justify the course that is now a- kilter... or askew... or what is it?

ooops... gotta go... wife's on the cell phone... she's on home and school comm... very upset... superintendentdude just addressd' em... said they ain't gonna like changes... property tax changes... plus new laws allowing kids to cross county lines for schoolin'... at new host counties expense (the city is next to us.) and the exactly what we've all been talkin' bout round here is being said in my ear... right now... cutting... tech... languages... art... music... so on and sad... shame. people standing screaming they are ashamed kids aren't being taught foreign languages... ouch. exact opposite of what needs to happen is going down... so, the justifyin' of the ship we is riddin' on seems to be 180?

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