Several articles (from sources such as the New York
Times and the AP) were circulating through the
Think Tankers.
The articles had to do with the impact
of the Homeland Security Acts on personal freedom and liberty.
As I started thinking about the talk of war, it made
me ask --
a reply:
if yer sayin what i think yer sayin
we're readin from different history books
comparing badly planned knee jerk tango hunting to
the christian church's attempt at religious genocide...
don't know what to tell ya
So, I said:
well... i was just thinking of the overall concept...
waging war for peace... makes me feel like an oxy moron
just saying it... hehehe
and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe
christians would like the genocide of certain
"fanatical" religious groups?
i mean... when was the last time we went to war
against religious movements... and not geographic
governmental systems?
and, why don't we try to figure out WHY these
"fanatical" religious groups are trying to kill us...
before we kill any MORE of them? [who started this
fight in the first place?]
or, has killing people in the name of peace worked
in the past?
Reply:
i guess you'd have to blow the brains outta a home invader
in your daughter's bedroom to see the difference between
theory and practice
none of which makes it more palatable, but it sure as
hell makes it less of an academic brain twisting exercise
i think there's two mistakes in that line of thought
one is equating fringe psycho's post facto manipulation
of an action to their own twisted motives
the other is avoiding the issue bush's iraq invasion as a
subject all by itself
i think it was a mistake to do it the way he's doing it,
and to do so without going full public on his real motives
you can trust me when i say this time around there are
so many back-room issues simmering (none of which
is being fed to the public) that the appearance is as muddy
as any i've seen in my lifetime
so he's asking for misinterpretation of his actions
unfortunately, alotta americans are taking a beating for
that - and it ain't just casual beatings
irrelevant - nobody said we're at religious war, other
than allah's people and the domestic fringe psychos
if you ain't figgered it out yet, go back to murrah/OKC,
WTC I, WTC II, the two AMEMB bombings in Africa, the
barracks bombing in the middle east, and dozens of
other outright tango attacks by bin laden and affiliated
rogue states
when you're done cleaning hair off yer daughters bedroom
wall - as per the scenario above - you're faced with similar
thoughts and challenges
but few who undergo that experience mount campaigns
to understand the criminal mind to make the world a
better place to live
and if you'd been unsuccessful in stopping the perp in
question in that scenario from harming your daughter,
you'd be faced with a truckload of other challenges
one thing you might wanna give some thought
as late as 1940, ghandi didn't think hitler was such a
big threat or such a bad guy
which is why i read ghandi for inspiring peace in my life,
but not for what to do when somebody shoots at me
there's a message in all that - mebbe more than one
but the more immediate issue - implicitly - is that
of 911, in which alotta people were murdered
so instead of rhetorical questions about killing for peace,
here's one right where it drops between yer heels
what do you DO about that
NOT hunt the perps
great
now that all the DON'Ts are outta the way
what do you DO?
p.s.
well i'm just guessing now, but a long shot notion tells
me that 200 stories of building and 3,000 lives were
wiped off the face of the earth by their counterpart
islamic fundamentalists
for my money, i'd lock em both in the same f*cking
room for a week with one bowl of rice, one bowl of
water, and let them work it out
and leave the rest of us the hell alone
or would that be too harsh and politically incorrect
p.s.s.
first, you'd have to hunt both of them down, take them
into custody, and force them into the room
some would not come along peacefully
you'd need to have a no-war solution for that too
reply to your reply:
hehehe... i ain't saying ya don't have some
valid points... but, ya appear to have skimmed
over my favorite of the rhetorical questions?
i mean i can go back and see where they have done
these bad things... but why did most of it happen...
in particular... why is bin laden's group doing what
they are doing?
all of those people can't be crazy... nor stupid...
so why are they doing it?
why?
and, is there any validity to their claim of self
defense? [which also appears to be our claim...
so now... we go in a downward spiral of tit for tat...
or do we figger who really hit who first?]
Then you replied:
not at all.
you've skimmed over the harsh reality that the
first order of business - at every level - is to
stop them before you go to the lab and analyze
their underlying motives... many of which emerge
in investigation during the hunt anyway.
like i said with the scenario - when the f*cker
was trying to mount your daughter in her bed,
and in the wake of that effort - no matter the
immediate result - you'd not be advised to be
thinking of how an asshole thinks, but rather
first how to stop him so he didn't wreak any
more havoc
on the motives - fine... you wanna analyze, then
analyze:
religious fanaticism has been around for millenia.
u figure nobody's analyzed it ?
does having analyzed it - thousands of times by
some fairly great intellects - stop it ?
your inference is that understanding something
itself encourages or impedes a thing.
it doesn't.
to wit,
noam chaumsky thinks he understands it all.
as does the UN
when it comes to unprovoked violence against
innocents, understanding is a booby prize. nothing
more.
what you're implicitly asking for is solutions.
alternately, you may be asking for something more
sweeping which, as i was once told, you will not find
in this life as a human being
only you know the answer to that one
i think i know some of the solutions - but i start from
the harsh reality starting point of here and now
like the way we treat our kids, both at home and as
a nation, as government, as a world
like budget priorities and programs
like war versus education
but in my case, my solution would not be to bend
over for the enemies of democracy out there while
i was putting more emphasis on our kids
i would simply reduce the size of our military budget
by about 70%, turn what was left into the meanest
bunch of mother f*ckers on the planet who could go
anywhere and do anything
course, jfk tried that, along with erasing the mob,
union corruption, ending silly ass mil projects (after
learning the hard way what they were really doing),
more focus on education, social balance...
and he's no longer with us
jfk got to witness the harsh realities up close and
personal
what about you ?
willing to die for those altruistic ideas ?
willing to have your family suffer or die along with you ?
americans generally have some great ideas, a really
impressive mouth to deliver them, but absolutely no
balls or action when it comes time for the rubber to
meet the road
if your wife had died in 911, what would you be doing
now ? writing letters to usama to establish peaceful
dialogue and understand why he wanted your wife dead
for his own agenda ?
and considering he's done that dozens of times during
the past two decades (see prior list), are you sure that
would be on your list of things to do ?
or let's put some wheels on your idea - while you were
hunting him, would you have social scientists wrestling
with that issue (they have been for a long time, even the
ones in the law enforcement, intel. and mil. agencies) ?
then what ? what would you do with that assessment ?
i mean, EXACTLY WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH IT ?
all of those people can't be crazy... nor stupid...
so why are they doing it?
why?
if you do some homework, you'll find fanaticism
rarely involves mental illness of any conventional
form or definition
it also rarely involves intellectual deficiency of any
kind... other than too much time on their hands and
very pissed off
you could do with a large dose of long-term research
on fanaticism, religious extremism, and related subjects
tit for tat ? are you on crack ?
find a single corollary event for 911... for murrah/OKC...
for WTCI... for WTCII...
and when you're done looking for one - which you
won't find - then go look up and read all of bin ladens
rhetoric... and the rhetoric of history's other lunatics
fer crissakes, we had to be dragged, kicking and scream-
ing, into WWI and WWII - then everybody complained that
we joined too late, then they complained we did too much
the french were SEA and nam LONG before we ever entered the fray. and we did so at the request of HO CHI
MINH almost half a century ago.
unlike the french, who not invited. and unlike the japanese
who were also there for a century or so
but you didn't hear the public bitching then did you ?
about either of those countries ?
why don't you hear bitching (including from yourself)
about what kim jong il (who helps finance bin laden
and other tangos) does to his own population... at least
as much bitching as you do about a war on iraq ?
i assume you know all about that... or maybe that's not
as well published in the mainstream press
or mebbe the whore-y-wood assholes don't find that
worth bitching about
ever stop to think about why ?
or about what hussein does to his own people ? where's
the humanistic complaint about that ? or about his use
of mustard gas on the iranians and the kurds REPEAT-
EDLY ?
or about how the PRC-Chinese gov. does population
control with formaldehyde injections into the brains
of babies as they crown DURING CHILDBIRTH ?
or how afghanistan is still the worlds largest producer
of opium - with 15,000 troops on the ground there, be-
cause they're not allowed to stop that this time around ?
or how the taliban and usama used those drugs to mount
their bombing strikes, including 911 ?
cool - let's put iraq in charge of the UN committee on
bio weapons disarmamment, and libya in charge of the
UN committee on human rights
outrageous, right ? mebbe, but its a done deal - on both
counts
i think jim garrison was right - we're through the f*cking
looking glass
just to straighten out your facts, here's a quote
from bin laden's most recent jihad declaration.
note its him that's declaring a religious war
specifically, and generally that they - as a
a religious group - should rule the world
go find a parallel threat or statement by anybody
else in the fracas
while looking for parallels - which you won't find - you
can take a look at this, which will show you how long
and deep they been at this
in fact - and this is not common knowledge - Iran began
planting people here in the '70's in university technical
programs like engineering and the like... you'll see mention
of one of allah's people specifically arriving CONUS circa
1973
i give you this info to help you see the expansive scope
and time period over which they've been planning their
destruction and murders
you'll have to search for the motive yourself - if that's the
main subject for your current attention
meanwhile, between bush making stupid political moves,
tangos going over the edge, and all the strange bedfellow
transnational alliances its prompting, i'd say were about
to have a very nasty decade or so
So, I said to you:
strange as it may seem... our seams may not
be that far apart?
sewed tighter then one may think?
that is to say ---
1) i'm not suggesting a get weak position
do we want to become what it is we are trying to
destroy?
is that the point ?
sorry - i was concentrating on all the other "point" 's
you made, then dropped
the pope has bodyguards and one of the slickest
intel operations - probably the oldest one too -
in the world
the ghandi family hasn't been to insistent about that
kinda thing, and most of them have been assassinated
instead of asking me rhetorical questions which, when
put back to you, you don't even answer, try proposing
what we SHOULD DO
because what you're trying to answer - as have millions
before you - is "Where do the twain meet ?"... "How do
we start from right here, right now ?"
I already started to address that prev in this thread,
with the reduction in and toughening of mil forces,
more money on education and diplomacy, using the
truly best and brightest as our point men in developing
domestic and foreign policy (which would have to
overcome the major roadblock of four year elected
officials' tenures - a very big obstacle)...
I'd bring Kissinger and other genuine intellects back
into the political fold, but this time I'd reign him in
with missions based on more altruistic purpose, so
he wouldn't simply use it for self enrichment, self
aggrandizement, and other selfish purposes. But
I'd pay him well enough to make it worth his while.
Same goes for people like our friend - who belongs in
national and even world policy development positions.
Your rhetorical question, your turn. Try answering it
yourself.
ooooh... you mean besides trying to fix the big
picture... what would i do with the here and now?
*seek justice*
ID parties on both sides that have violated
human rights, including but not limited to:
sudan
then, attempt to bring those suspects to justice...
without killing them (and in no event killing innocent
/bystanders)
[note:
only people that HAVE committed a crime would be sought
(that is to say... though we have not found them
guilty yet, we know that a crime has been committed
... as opposed to a hypothetical future crime.)]
i would expect as many, or more, americans would need
to be justified (cuz a lot of perps from the other
side are already dead... like those on the planes 9/11)
and, i would try to display that american justice...
is just... around the world... that we are just as just
to us... as them.
... as opposed to two-faced hypocrites
*seek justice*
more rhetorical horseshit - like you have a corner
on its definition or its correct implementation
(list)
i honestly thought you were smarter than that.
You said:
and, since you appear to have defined it in your emails...
i was going to use your corner:
i define 'smart' as at least w-i-s-e enough to know the facts,
the truth and the history behind your choice of purported
"parallels"
that list was as poor as any i've seen from anybody on this
subject
i guess i expected better from you
i'm now convinced that US education oughtta require you live
with a family and go to school in another country for one
year before graduating high school - complete with being
conversational in that country's language
you'd have to master latin, as its the foundation of all western
and romance languages
and you should have to pass history, logic and english
language tests that would make most guys balls shrivel today
phys ed - grade school through high school - would be a bitch
an enjoyable bitch, but a bitch nonetheless
college would be paid for by public funds, and teachers would
be among the best paid professionals in world history
absent that, we are headed for more serious problems than
anyone, including the doomsdayers, could ever dream
and from this thread alone, it shouldn't be too tough to figure
out that it won't all be from outside our borders
ignorance breeds parallactic conflict - the worst kind of all
Yeeha! i thought we were in agreement... the education
thing... on the money. in fact, i'm dumbfounded that
you can gradgeminate without knowing how to manage money.
why don't we teach people how to save and invest?
why haven't we shown people... they as consumers
have the most powerful vote... the way the spend
their dollars? the way the vote with their dollars
(and, i'd suggest that most of today's problems
resulted from the way people spent their dollars)
i could spout and shout quite a fit on the subject...
let alone computers and technology, etc. music... art...
damn shame.
the only other clearifrycation might be this part:
And, you said:
this is not a list of mine... only that which i have
heard others complain about... indeed, the first time
i heard people around the world... russia... africa...
canada... questioning the justice of the US nuke bombings
in japan... hmmm... i had to stop and think...
were we justified in killing massive amounts of civilians?
and, now as we store massive amounts of nukes... we tell
others you can not have them... because...? we are better
than you? more responsible than you?
in each of the "lists" examples, there are many people
who believe that justice has not been served... that
civilians were murdered.
and, in many people's book... murder is murder.
now, i don't know which of the events on the list really
involved murder... but, i do believe the world needs
more education on the subject... less we turn into hatfields
and mccoys.
thus, the only addition to education that i would stress... is
listening
seems to me... in large part... that when those 2 things happen...
justice takes care of itself
post script:
i was just sittin' here thinkin' about this thread
and, what a friggin dag nab shame... that it's tooooo
late
you are right in your thoughts
but, it is too late for the rest of us
for, i see no course of action... if taken today...
that will justify the course that is now a-
kilter... or askew... or what is it?
ooops... gotta go... wife's on the cell phone... she's
on home and school comm... very upset... superintendentdude
just addressd' em... said they ain't gonna like changes...
property tax changes... plus new laws allowing kids to
cross county lines for schoolin'... at new host counties
expense (the city is next to us.) and the exactly what
we've all been talkin' bout round here is being said in
my ear... right now... cutting... tech... languages...
art... music... so on and sad... shame. people standing
screaming they are ashamed kids aren't being taught foreign
languages... ouch.
exact opposite of what needs to happen is going down...
so, the justifyin' of the ship we is riddin' on seems
to be 180?
When was the last time a war(s) like this happened...
the Crusades?
well... i was just thinking of the overall concept...
waging war for peace... makes me feel like an oxy moron
just saying it... hehehe
and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe
christians would like the genocide of certain
"fanatical" religious groups?
i mean... when was the last time we went to war
against religious movements... and not geographic
governmental systems?
and, why don't we try to figure out WHY these
"fanatical" religious groups are trying to kill us...
before we kill any MORE of them? [who started this
fight in the first place?]
or, has killing people in the name of peace worked
in the past?
NOT go after the rogue states that helped make that possible
NOT go to war
and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe
christians would like the genocide of certain
"fanatical" religious groups?
and, why don't we try to figure out WHY these
"fanatical" religious groups are trying to kill us...
before we kill any MORE of them? [who started this
fight in the first place?]
as do all the social psychologists
and theologians
and armchair shrinks
and all political moderates
and all political extremists, left and right
i mean i can go back and see where they have done
these bad things... but why did most of it happen...
in particular... why is bin laden's group doing what
they are doing?
and, is there any validity to their claim of self
defense? [which also appears to be our claim...
so now... we go in a downward spiral of tit for tat...
or do we figger who really hit who first?]
and... i guess it sorta appears as though some severe
christians would like the genocide of certain
"fanatical" religious groups?
We also point out that whoever
supported the United
States, including the hypocrites of
Iraq or the rulers of Arab
countries, those who approved their
actions and followed
them in this crusade war by fighting
with them or providing
bases and administrative support, or
any form of support,
even by words, to kill the Muslims
in Iraq, should know that
they are apostates and outside the
community of Muslims.
It is permissible to spill their
blood and take their property.
God says: "O ye who believe! Take
not the Jews and the
Christians for your friends and
protectors: they are but
friends and protectors to each
other."
And he amongst you that turns to
them [for friendship] is of
them.
Verily, Allah guideth not a people
unjust.
We also stress to honest Muslims
that they should move,
incite, and mobilize the [Islamic]
nation, amid such grave
events and hot atmosphere so as to
liberate themselves
from those unjust and renegade
ruling regimes, which are
enslaved by the United States.
They should also do so to establish
the rule of God on
earth.
2) justice... we both agree in this?
3) the point.
WTT
bombing of afgan wedding
aid to Israel (and other aid money used to kill
civilians)
WWII nukin' of japan civilians
etc
ooooh... you mean besides trying to fix the big
picture... what would i do with the here and now?
ID parties on both sides that have violated
human rights, including but not limited to:
more rhetorical horseshit - like you have a corner
on its definition or its correct implementation
i wasn't going to use my definition of justice...
like you said... i ain't that smart.
"for my money, i'd lock em both in the same fucking
room for a week with one bowl of rice, one bowl of
water, and let them work it out"
your choice of purported "parallels"